Episode 318 – Toyota’s Troubles Just Begin, Tesla May Go Public, Small Sales Losses in 2009
February 1st, 2010 at 12:00pm
Runtime 7:16
Toyota says it has a fix for sticking gas pedals but its problems are just beginning. Tesla might do an Initial Public Offering. Believe it or not, on a global basis, car sales barely fell at all last year. All that and more, plus a look at some issues John recently ran into on the Lincoln MKS.
Transcript and Story Links after the jump . . .
Here are today’s top headlines. Toyota’s problems are just getting started. Tesla might do an IPO. And believe it or not, on a global basis, car sales barely fell at all last year.
Up next, we’ll be back with the news behind the headlines.
This is Autoline Daily for Monday, February 1, 2010. And now, the news.
Toyota says it has a fix for its sticking gas pedals, the government approved it, and the company is sending repair kits to dealers. But Toyota’s problems are far from over. The Detroit News reports that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration raised concerns over sticking throttles in 2007, but Toyota said there was no problem. Former NHTSA administrator Nicole Nason says Toyota should be severely punished if it misled investigators.
Meanwhile, the Wall Street Journal reports that Japanese media are portraying U.S. media coverage of the Toyota recall as Japan bashing, as a resurgence of 1980s protectionism. But I can assure my Japanese colleagues that they simply don’t understand the American mindset. The media here always go after who ever is No. 1. After they knocked off General Motors, it was only a matter of time before the media went after Toyota. And Toyota just gave them the perfect excuse to go for the throat.
Last week we reported that Hyundai would not offer special incentives to lure Toyota buyers into its showrooms. I guess they changed their minds. Now they’ll give $1,000 to any Toyota customer who buys a Hyundai.
Even investors are worried about Toyota. Autoblog reports the company’s stock fell 14 percent last week, which translates into a market cap drop of $21 billion. Autoblog, by the way, is already referring to this story as “Throttle Gate.”
Ford SYNC is one of the best in-car connectivity systems on the market today, and other automakers have taken notice. According to Ward’s, competitors have been in touch with the company and are interested in licensing the technology (subscription required). Ford has not yet decided if it will sell SYNC to other carmakers, but if it does choose to go that route it would only offer older versions of the system. SYNC launched in 2008 and was developed with Microsoft. It’s currently in its third generation. The Blue Oval lost exclusivity on the technology last November, and now Kia is set to launch its own version of the system called UVO, but Ford says it’s still far ahead of the competition.
Riding the recent wave of environmental consciousness, Reuters reports that last Friday Tesla filed an IPO, or initial public offering, for up to $100 million. The electric carmaker best known for its $110,000 battery-powered roadster has not revealed when it will go public or how much shares will cost. Interestingly, this is the first IPO of a U.S. automaker since Ford went public way back in 1956!
With nearly all the major automakers reporting huge sales losses last year you’d think overall global sales would be down significantly. Not so, Ward’s reports. Global sales only fell about 2 percent in 2009 (subscription required) with 66.1 million vehicles being delivered around the world. Even though North America and Europe saw big losses, sales gains in the Asia/Pacific region, mainly China, nearly offset those. Without China’s breakout year, global sales would have been down nearly 11 percent.
Chinese company, Tengzhong, which is looking to buy Hummer from General Motors, agreed to extend the deadline to buy it. According to the AFP, the original deadline was set to expire on Sunday – as in yesterday – but now it’s been pushed back to the end of February.
Ford has been on a roll lately. But that doesn’t mean everything is perfect at the company. Coming up next, we’ll look at some issues I recently ran into on the Lincoln MKS.
The Lincoln MKS is a very good car in most regards. But not everything about the car is perfect. Let’s go take a look at this clip that we shot recently.
Ford may actually want to think about tamping down everyone’s enthusiasm for the company these days. While the company has made amazing progress, it still has a lot of improvements to make. And it better be careful that the public’s expectations don’t run ahead of reality.
And that’s it for today’s top news in the global automotive industry. Thanks for watching, we’ll see you tomorrow.
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Comments (73)
February 1st, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Look at the Japanese whinning about our media.Take it like a man Toyota,they are just starting.
Kudos to Ford,they are improving quality,and that ain’t just words either,they are doing it.As far as Johns beef with some of the electronics in the MKS,your right and they will fix it.Probably just a software issue.
Back to Toyota,with their recent mandate about lowering suppliers costs,look for more media worthy complaints being aired,they just love “dirty laundry”…..LOL.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Back on January 12th Autoblog had an article about the new Lincoln MyTouch that refers to the changes already in place for the radio buttons that you mentioned.
The Headlamp problem you mentioned must be a unique problem to the vehicle you were in. In checking with the local Ford Lincoln Mercury dealer there are no incendents reported.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Ford may correct these insignificant problems on the Lincolns easily, but it can’t easily correct the major problems with these vehicles, they are truly obese, inefficient, and the styling is grotesque up front, and they are WAY too expensive for what they are, $50k v6s only marginally better than the Tauruses or other Fords they share most mechanicals with.
Most people believe that the Detroit 3’s biggest loss to the imports was in the mid-priced market, and to japan, but this is 100% wrong.
The biggest tragedy, by far, as I keep saying, is the total disaster in the LUXURY market segment, where Ford and GM alone used to own 90%, and now all domestics together barely own 17%!
And Lincoln is doing much, much worse than Cadillac recently…
February 1st, 2010 at 12:29 pm
John McElroy should not worry about consumers being too high on Ford, this will change when the new Fiesta and other models are introduced and are given a thorough test by the car mags, not to mention later in Consumer Reports. Especially if FOrd, like GM with the Cruze, does not sell them in the US with the best engines it sells them in Europe, or if it prices them well above the best of their segments!
How many buyers will pay $23k for an Aveo-sized Fiesta, when a far larger Nissan Versa can be had for LESS THAN $10,000?
This is a NEW problem for Detroit, it used that its products were always MUCH cheaper than their competition! By $2k even back in the 80s when cars were selling for less than $10k!
February 1st, 2010 at 12:29 pm
When GM and Ford had their “issues” Toyota always touted their quality ratings at the most opportune times. They pursued GM relentlessly for the number one spot even building, big trucks that were GM and Ford’s last big money maker. I’m not feeling to bad for them.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:38 pm
I can see a point to levying a heavy fine on Toyota if they are indeed guilty of a Watergate-style coverup, in addition to civil liability to provide justice for survivors of whoever may have been killed or seriously injured by runaway Toyotas.
Regarding Japan-bashing: Come on! I remember when Ford was heavily attacked in the news media when reports began surfacing of people being immolated in gasoline fires, when early versions of the Pinto were hit from behind. Was that necessarily America bashing or Ford-bashing?
With the Pinto, Ford was accused of the same thing Toyota is now being accused of – trying to cover things up, Nixon/Watergate style. So the automotive world has seemingly turned around 180 degrees.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:40 pm
So Toyota just got done telling us that sticking throttle pedals were the result of floor mates and long peddles. The fix remove mats and shorten pedals. Now they tell us that the design might be faulty and the fix. replace parts of the accelerator peddle. So what is the real story? Since others use the same hardware,but are not having the same problem, I suspect the issue is again else where. Toyota now has Ford Pinto problems, or GM Vega problems. This won’t kill them, but it will hurt their sales
February 1st, 2010 at 12:43 pm
“With the Pinto, Ford was accused of the same thing Toyota is now being accused of – trying to cover things up, Nixon/Watergate style. So the automotive world has seemingly turned around 180 degrees.”
Not at all. Ford deliberately declined to fix the pinto, which would only take $50 per vehicle then (maybe $250 now), because its beancounters told its managers that it would be far less expensive to fight it in court and settle. Toyota never had this mentality. They are going to FIX the problem, and after some heavy losses they will resume on their prior path.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:46 pm
PS the devastating defeat of the Detroit 3 in the LUXURY segment I cited above was NOT in the hands of the japanese (with the possible exception of Lexus, all others did poorly, Acura, Infiniti etc) but mainly the German Luxury-High performance Imports.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Let us not forget the chevy pickup debacle.70’s or early 80’s had gas tanks unprotected between pickup box and frame rails= many explosions and deaths.Bean counters should shoulder some of the blame when it comes to this stuff,jmho.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:55 pm
And since the discussion went this way, let’s not forget the crooks on Dateline NBC for deliberately fixing a truck with explosives or whatever to artificially cause a fire. (I write this from memory, it was long ago, so it may not be 100% accurate, but they definitely sabotaged the truck to get better pictures for their lame-ass cheap 60 minutes knockoff show. Was it a Ford truck?)
February 1st, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Just saw the Jim Lentz interview on NBC and he appears to be giving deceitful answers, as if he knows that Toyota was aware of this problem and did not move fast enough to fix it. I have always been wary of all these overly complicated throttle and brake controls that now are prevalent in modern cars. The more crap they put into these vehicles the more complications and headaches for all involved. I’m afraid we’ve reached the point of no return.
February 1st, 2010 at 1:10 pm
I also watched Lenz being interviewed by Lauer (NOT my favorite TV character, BTW). I thought Lenz missed an opportunity to make a 100% clear statement that YES, Toyota will fix this, and soon, and go back on its path, when he was given the opportunity. Maybe he was overly cautious.
February 1st, 2010 at 1:13 pm
it was actually a GM truck the Crooks at NBC messed with back in 1993:
” a scandal that had the NBC Dateline TV show nailing General Motors for exploding gas tanks. To this day, many people will not buy a used GM truck because of the unfair reputation the NBC news department created for them. The accusation against GM cost millions in lawsuits and potential vehicle sales, and it wasn’t even true… Some of those PHR readers, turns out, were there during NBC Dateline’s video-taped test of a rigged collision between a car and a GM truck (which happened near Indianapolis), and they had video tape of their own! In the infamous broadcast, the collision takes place, and the truck is instantly engulfed in flames.
In reality, the truck was rigged with incendiary devices—toy rocket motors—that lit the escaping fuel from the collision.
GM was absolved of all wrong doing, and NBC had to pay up for the fraud they perpetrated!
February 1st, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Won’t we all take a moment of silence to remember what 60 minutes did to Audi?
Now we need to see how well NHTSA was protecting drivers against Toyota sudden acceleration. The govt.’s track record recently has been shameful.(You still got web privileges Bernie?)
February 1st, 2010 at 1:51 pm
I think what GM, Ford and Chrysler needs to do is to turn Japanese and receive some of that bashing, it obviously a lot less painfull than the MASSIVE BEATING they get from being American companies.
I think this is the worst on Japanese Bashing… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4
February 1st, 2010 at 2:00 pm
The NBC “demonstration” using the rocket motors was rigged, but that generation of GM pickups actually did have a much higher incidence of fires in side collisions because of the location of the gas tank between the side of the box and the frame rail.
February 1st, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Most GM (and Ford and Chrysler) cars in 93 were POS. One of our former PhD students, who was working at GM research labs and teaching a course on the side, would get a different car once every few months, with free service and gas, so instead of him having to pay for parking, I told him to give the cars to me and I test drove them for the 1 or 1.5 hours he would teach.
The Chevy Lumina I o nce got was so bad, it made the Chevy Blazer I drove next seem really good. The Northstar V8 in the Eldorado was great, at 275 HP in a barely 4,000 lb car or less, it had plenty of acceleration compared to the other cars I drove then..
February 1st, 2010 at 2:38 pm
But, I forgot my point, the above is not in the least an excuse for the NBC crooks to do what they did! I hope they paid dearly for it too.
February 1st, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Speaking of POS cars, I also must nominate all GM x-cars from the early 80’s plus Cavalier, its variants,also Corsica/Bereta and lately previous gen. Accent, this is from personal experience. The local car rental agency seems to have mostly Avengers, so in a couple of weeks I maybe adding a new car to my list. I’m trying to get them to have something better when I go there.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:07 pm
“The local car rental agency seems to have mostly Avengers, so in a couple of weeks I maybe adding a new car to my list.”
Boy oh boy are you going to hear from Max on this, Pedro!
February 1st, 2010 at 3:08 pm
PS Hertz used to not guarantee a toyota but would usually find one for me in the past, but if you rent a hybrid, they do guarantee a Prius, for example.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:10 pm
back in 95 I was in Orlando working on a project for Lockheed Martin and I do not even remember what POS I rented, but it struck me that the students that worked for me who were also there somehow managed to rent a very upscale loaded Volvo, with black leather seats, sunroofs and the like!
February 1st, 2010 at 3:20 pm
I wonder what kind of back lash this will create for Toyota? After all, GM and Ford employed so many people in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s they could make some mistakes and live to fight another day. Toyota on the other hand doesn’t have nearly the same reach as GM and Ford.
I do have a relative working for Toyota in Texas.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:28 pm
How can Japan scream that U.S. is protectionist? Look at Janpan’s protectionist policies and taxation against U.S. cars.
I agree that Lincolns are obese. These Lincolns might as well be SUVs. While the Cadillac CTS is viewed as small and nimble, I think that even the CTS is obese. Lincoln needs to build a competitor to the 3-series BMW.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:53 pm
You know that Japan is going to defend their companies. This is huge and if our government is getting involved I’m sure Japan’s government will jump in too.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Nick and others here on Autoline Daily:
Thanks for reminding me – I had forgotten until now – of the news media rigging GM pickup trucks to make them explode in flames.
Now: If its possible for those who don’t like the automobile to pull this kind of stunt, can’t we then assume they are not above measuring temperatures in various places in a manner such as to make it appear that average global temperature is increasing?
February 1st, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Nick, you wondered if NBC paid for the Gas Tank Fraud. Well, a friend was working in their news division at the time, and he was furious at what those shits on that job had done. He was pretty ashamed himself.
February 1st, 2010 at 5:57 pm
When I started in the trade,metallurgy & lubricants were pitiful, & were the source of most our business. Spark plugs @ 9k,valve jobs @ 25k, overhaul @ 60, scrapped @ well under 100.
Compared to that era, today,s cars are PERFECT!
–Except for suspension NVH
February 1st, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Great perspective on each story! Couldn’t agree more!
February 1st, 2010 at 7:43 pm
It is a interesting turn of fate for Toyota. The ripple effects will be fun to watch. Hertz, here in Orlando, traded out most of their Pontiac’s for Toyota’s. Now there are two city blocks of Toyota’s waiting for repair. From what I understand, there will be two shifts doing recalls on all of these to get them back into the rental fleet before spring break.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:06 pm
John, I think the bigger story is Ford USA is Expanding its incentive program to ANY AND ALL Honda/Acura (In response to the FIT recall) and Lexus Products for any product 1995 or newer who trade in for ANY AND ALL Ford/Lincoln/Mercury products.
John, I actually this is wild. Hyundai said they would not offer incentives, and then offer an incentive plan that lasted 1 day, wow!!!
LMAO, slick, I like it!!! As everybody else piles on with the incentives, Hyundai wont be stupid and not participate, while not rubbing it in and instead looking like the good guys, while everybody else looks like vultures
February 1st, 2010 at 9:25 pm
I dont get it, I dont understand it. Ive driven the Fit, played around with it etc….
Who’d buy a Fit/Jazz thats just as equipped as a Rio/Accent, 2 cars that have proven to be more reliable, with better MPG, and costs so much less with the same equippment as Fit for the same price as a MINI that has leather etc…..?
1. Not to mention that even the new Fit has less Interior space than Accent.
2. The Fit has the same plastics fit and finish, etc as Accent.
3. Accent has more MPG, and a gas tank that’s about 2 galons larger than Fit as well.
4. Accent sells more than Fit as well.
It doesnt make sense that Fit is the automotive small car darling of the Auto Journalist set, when there are other cars that can do the same or better for less=like Accent or the same price=like MINI.
I think the Media is still Very Discriminatory against Hyundai/KIA with its vehicle recommendations. I think the Media still deep down inside says “Oh this car is good, but its still a Hyundai.”
I Think the media has been giving Honda and Toyota a free ride, despite others who have not only caught up but now exceed Honda and Toyota on many points. Not just the Koreans, but Ford as well.
Ford is trying their asses off, and the media still doubts them too. Yet, they give Chrysler all of the chances in the World, especially when its partnered up with a Company like FIAT that produces Hyundai/KIA quality product from 15 years ago.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Not to mention the fact that CHRYSLER HASNT PAID US BACK YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
February 1st, 2010 at 9:32 pm
When I say Accent Im talking about the 3 Door Model. The 4 door is even larger.
February 1st, 2010 at 9:42 pm
Thank you for our daily Hyundai / Kia commercial fantasy break.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:00 pm
HyundaiSmoke Says:
February 1st, 2010 at 9:25 pm
“Who’d buy a Fit/Jazz thats just as equipped as a Rio/Accent, 2 cars that have proven to be more reliable, with better MPG, and costs so much less with the same equippment”
I don’t know where you get your information, but according to Consumer Reports, which does some things well, like providing basic published informaion and measuring fuel economy:
1) Fit gets better gas mileage than Accent/Rio
2) Fit is roomier than Accent/Rio
3) Fit is more comfortable than Accent/Rio
4) Fit accelerates better than Accent/Rio
5) Fit stops MUCH better than Accent/Rio
6) Fit has better crash test results than Accent/Rio
Accent/Rio are cheaper, and they have a better warranty, but chances are, you won’t need the warranty much for any of them. Beyond that, the Fit is just a better car. That could certainly change, though, when the next genration Accent and Rio come along.
I’m comparing Fit with Accent/Rio, all in hatch, manual transmission form.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:22 pm
H/S says:
“Who’d buy a Fit/Jazz thats just as equipped as a Rio/Accent, 2 cars that have proven to be more reliable, with better MPG, and costs so much less with the same equippment as Fit for the same price as a MINI that has leather etc…..?”
A fit “Sport” (Sport required to get cruise control) with destination charge is $17,720
A “zero option” Mini, with destination charge is $19,500. The cheapest Mini with leather would be $21,250 with destination charge. I’m not sure where you are getting your information.
(The Fit and Mini prices above are for manual transmission cars).
February 1st, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Ok, This is from Hyundai and Honda themselves. Screw Consumer Reports with their wrong outdated information.
MPG
Fit: 28/35
Accent: 27/36
Passenger Interior Cubic Volume
Fit: 90.8
Accent: 92.2
Fuel Tank Capcaity US Gallons
Fit: 10.6
Accent: 11.9
Ok I blew my numbers up, as I remembered the Fit having less less fuel tank capacity than 10.6 gallons. The Combind MPG for both Accent and Fit is 31 MPG, but when you drive on the highway as much as I do that 1.3 gallons extra and 1 gallon more MPG matters.
Kit, you get leatherette standard in the MINI, while for close to the same price the Fit Sport has the same cloth seats that are in Accent. leaherette is not an expensice material. It only brings asmall car’s price up about a grand.
Im resting on my point that I feel like the Fit is a rip off, and the media has been giving Honda a free ride.
February 1st, 2010 at 10:58 pm
Consumer Reports measures fuel economy under real-world conditions, rather than just listing EPA numbers. The have real people tell what it is like to sit in the cars. They put real cargo in cars to check usable cargo area. They measure braking distances. They measure acceleration times. All things considered, the Fit is the best of “B Segment” cars sold in the US. There is little real argument about it.
The Mini is in a different category. It is a bit pricey and is not very roomy, but is fun and nicely finished. As far is Minis, I am well aware that they are not a good value, even though I have one. I’d probably rather have cloth seats than the “leatherette” I have in my Mini, but I’m sure today’s leatherette will hold up reasonably well, unlike what they used in the 60’s and 70’s.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Kit, that leatherette is going to be fine, relax. It depends Kit, the way they drove it etc.. Its passive Subjective more than anything.
February 1st, 2010 at 11:24 pm
I dont trust Consumer Reports, they have an Anti Korean Pro Japanese Agenda.
February 2nd, 2010 at 6:52 am
John: Hyundai/Kia says the check is in the mail.
February 2nd, 2010 at 6:53 am
Hey, H/S maybe you can get an interview during the super bowl and talk about your favorite subject,now THAT’S an audience!!!!
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:27 am
I usually scroll down H/S’s rants, but I read Kit’s and others’ replies to them, today’s sacrilege (comparing the primitive Accent to the Intelligent Designed, stylish, very practical Fit, is ridiculous. If they are priced similarly, even if the Fit is $2k over the Accent, I have no clue why in the world anybody would go for the ugly Accent.
(Now that will get me the H/S vote for sure)
And the main companies that should be mad at Consumer Reports are not the Koreans, not even the domestics, recently CR recommended many domestics that I would not consider, they are the Big 3 in germany, Merc, BMW and Audi.
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:29 am
Kit: there is no reason to prefer cloth over leather or leatherette, except if the car has no heating or A/C and the leather/ette may be colder in Winter and sure could be sticky in the summer, but today every car has both of these systems.
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:31 am
I doubt very much that many shoppers that are looking to buy a Fit will cross shop at Hyundai for.. an Accent. Or a Chevy Aveo, or even a Nissan Versa for that matter. The fit is too stylish and intelligent design compared to these.
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:32 am
But the fit is still not a huge seller, it is almost a niche vehicle like the Mini. Maybe if Honda made the price difference between the Fit and the base Civic bigger? But on the other hand, bringing back the sporty civic hatches would hurt the Fit.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:32 am
I cross shopped the Fit and Accent. The Accent 3 door doesn’t even come CLOSE to the Fit in interior room. The Rio5 is actually the closest to compare to the Fit. You know what the deal killer was with the Rio5? While you can get cruise control on an Accent albeit the expensive one, you can’t get it on a Rio5 at any price. That’s stupid. Now that being said, I test drove an Accent 3 door and, nicely equipped (stereo, windows, locks, air), I could have drove it off for $12,500. You can’t even sniff a Fit for that money.
BTW, I ended up “stealing” a 2000 CR-V so I bought it instead.
As far as the Toyota issue, if this kind of thing would have any permanent damage to a company, GM would have been out of business by 1984. I think that PMD and John are homers for Detroit, and I respect that, but don’t drink the Kool Aid. The short term effect is devistating, but the long term effect will be a benefit as Toyota has had their pee pee slapped, they will go at the business with a bit more humility and realize they are not invincible. It’s a lesson that GM could have learned after the Corvair, Vega X car, diesel, V8-6-4, but never did until it was too late.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:36 am
The main thing that keeps Consumer Reports from recommending the big Germans is reliability survey results. They really like the current S-Class, except for the overly complex controls, and it did well enough, “average,” in the reliability survey to be recommended.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:40 am
I have a friend who cross shopped Fit and Scion xD, and ended up buying the Fit.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:49 am
I question the reliability comparisons on CR. When somebody pays $100k for an S or a 7, one demands PERFECTION. I strongly suspect that most “unreliability” reports for these vehicles are laughably minor incidents that most people who pay $20k or $30k for a Buick or a Pontiac would not even bother to report.
In fact, I claim that the top end luxury german sedans will far OUTLIVE the touted Japanese models in CR. A dealer from Canada explained this very well on another site. people in europe do not throw their $ out the window, and drive their cars until they drop dead, they do not go buy new cars every few years, and I got plenty of evidence from people I know. LONGEVITY is never mentioned in CR.
Complexity is another thing. My 90 Accord was a very simple vehicle, compared to my later top-end German luxury sedans. The Accord had some recurring failures that the germans NEVER had so far, such as the exhaust, parts of which i would replace every couple years in the Accord, but NEVER in 5 years with the german cars.
That dealer went on to say that the Japanese cars are optimal for the US market in the sense that Americans almost never want a car “FOR LIFE” but trade them in every few years with barely 100k miles on them.
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:53 am
EAB: Another problem with Hyundai-Kia is it has too many models, each selling too few units, like the GM of the past. Consumers do not know what they are, and it will cost Hyundai 100s of millions to explain in Ads. On the conrtary, everybody knows what a Civic, Accord, or CR-V is (the top 3 Honda Sellers). The CRV in particular has become the most successful Honda in 09, in terms of sales growth/decline, while the Accord and the Civic receded.
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:22 am
“Speaking of POS cars, I also must nominate all GM x-cars from the early 80’s plus Cavalier, its variants,also Corsica/Bereta and lately previous gen. Accent, this is from personal experience. The local car rental agency seems to have mostly Avengers, so in a couple of weeks I maybe adding a new car to my list. I’m trying to get them to have something better when I go there.”
Pedro, Pedro, Pedro ……. did you not read my posting from the other day??? Nick was so right that you’d be hearing from me…..
I have a Dodge Avenger, bought it brand new, so every mile on it has been put on by me and I also know everything that has been done to it. And guess what? I’ve got nearly 40,000 miles on it, and EVERY mile has been trouble-free! Some may have issues with the styling (I happen to love it), or the interior materials (granted, they are cheap, but I’ve certainly seen cheaper) or maybe other things. But it’s been truly one of the best cars on the road if you are simply looking at reliability, service, and performance! I get 28-31 mpg consistently out of the V6, and though it’s certainly not a Hemi, it WILL RUN! To call a car such as this, with such a completely PERFECT service record a POS …….. I have to wonder exactly what your definition of POS is????
As most of you know who have read anyting that I post, I am proudly and unashamedly a Mopar/Chrysler man – always have been and most likely always will be. And yes, Chrysler has built some duds, but what car company hasn’t? I do have a question for all of you, and I may be opening myself up for a huge broadslam, but……….. in the past few days memories of the Ford Pinto problems and the GM pickup problems have once again been brought to our memories. And of course we now have the Toyota debacle that may well put a long-lasting curse on this brand. My question is, though Chrysler has been slammed by consumers, media and almost everyone else down through the years, has Chrysler ever built a vehicle with truly unsafe characteristics as the ones I just mentioned? None pop into my mind, and if that is truly the case, I would have to say that Chrysler has truly been one of the better manufacturers of safe transportation in our world. Ok, slam me (and my beloved Mopars) with whatever you have!
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:24 am
@Nick: You are correct, that Kia is kind of like Ford and Hyundai is Mercury/Lincoln, same cars with different chrome and badging. Hyundai is on their way to fixing that. I think that in 5-7 years, Hyundai will be the Acura/Lexus and Kia will be the mainstream line. I think it’s a market that’s ripe for the picking as Acura and Infinity have lost their way.
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:44 am
EAB:
I was actually not referring to the differences between the two, but that overall, Hyundai and Kia have way too many different models, very few of which (1 or 2) sell over 10,000 a month, compared to the 40,000 or so Accords or Camrys or Civics or Corollas Honda and Toyota used to sell. If they plan to significantly expand in the future, while keeping the number of models the same or less, it could be OK.
The situation will change considerably though, currently Honda and Toyota and even Nissan have very few, if any, new models in these categories, which partially explains the syuccess of Hyundai, Subaru, and even VW last year, but once the new Civic, Accord, Camry, Corollas are out, things will change.
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:59 am
Nick Stevens Says:
February 2nd, 2010 at 9:49 am
“I question the reliability comparisons on CR. When somebody pays $100k for an S or a 7, one demands PERFECTION.”
I suspect that is true, and then you add all of the complexity of an S or 7, and you have that many more “little” things that could come up in those cars. CR’s reliability data doesn’t much affect what I buy; I bought a used ‘06 Mini, which didn’t have such great results in the CR surveys.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:08 am
My main objection to leatherette seats, is that I have too many memories of the very-short-lived vinyl seats of the 60’s and 70’s. I know I’m being a bit irrational; the seats in my four year old Mini are in perfect condition.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:32 am
“suspect that is true, and then you add all of the complexity of an S or 7, and you have that many more “little” things that could come up in those cars.”
Fortunately it is usually little things, glitches etc, not major problems. Engine and Transmissions hold up pretty good. And the question is, if an S or a 7 has four times the items than a simple econobox, and owners report 3 failures for the S and 2 for the econobox, which one is most reliable? One could say, the S, by far, since 3/(4x) is much smaller than 2/x, for any x.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:39 am
jan Sales are starting to be reported. Kia so far. almost no change from jan 09. Hope the table is not garbled:
MONTH OF JANUARY YEAR-TO-DATE
—————- ————
Model 2010 2009 2010 2009
—–
Rio 2,398 1,656 2,398 1,656
Spectra 47 5,810 47 5,810
Forte 3,732 n/a 3,730 n/a
Optima 3,162 2,198 3,162 2,198
Amanti 28 183 28 183
Sportage 762 4,129 762 4,129
Sorento 473 3,621 473 3,621
MY’11 Sorento 7,398 n/a 7,398 n/a
Sedona 928 2,570 928 2,570
Rondo 356 1,657 356 1,657
Borrego 694 272 694 272
Soul 2,145 n/a 2,147 n/a
Total 22,123 22,096
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
Subaru did much, much better than break even:
BREAKING NEWS:
Subaru sale rise 28% in January
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/#ixzz0eOjbbcsZ
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:53 am
Max: I suppose you have been very fortunate, I have met 2 people with fairly new Avengers and both complained about the same issue: rattles, groins and noises coming from within the dashboard area and the dealer’s inability to fix them. Then I remembered back in the early 70’s when my family owned 2 Plymouths and both suffered from the same noise and rattles, I guess that in 40 years, Chrysler has not learned how to build rattle-free cars. Plus it’s no coincidence that the Sebring and Avenger come out at the bottom in that class of car.
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:55 am
The renaissance of Subaru after America’s love affair with useless, wasteful SUV’s (just to have 4wd) is over. Yeepee!!!!!! Change is good in some cases.
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:00 pm
pedro fernandez Says:
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:55 am
“The renaissance of Subaru after America’s love affair with useless, wasteful SUV’s (just to have 4wd) is over. Yeepee!!!!!! Change is good in some cases.”
It’s nice to see that some people are replacing SUV’s with Subarus, but it would be better yet if Subaru would quit making AWD mandatory. I bet they’d sell more cars in Florida if they did.
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Pedro……….
So your definition of a POS is because it has a few rattles in the dash? I agree, I would not be happy if my Avenger had those faults, but in my book, rattles do not make a car a POS, ESPECIALLY if it has a completely spotless service record and delivers very good fuel economy.
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
“It’s nice to see that some people are replacing SUV’s with Subarus, but it would be better yet if Subaru would quit making AWD mandatory. I bet they’d sell more cars in Florida if they did.”
I heasrd somewhere that Subaru wants to expand its sales, that currently focus on the NE and the midwest snowbelt, into sunny states with no serious winters. IF so, I hope it will not offer the same AWD vehicles but lighter, cheaper FWD versions, or it would be a huge waste of meterials and especially gas, as most AWD Subarus are lousy MPGers compared to their FWD and RWD peer vehicles..
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:30 pm
i was not the one to be underwhelmed by the Avenger/Sebring duo:
“Winner of the Hire Car Nightmare Award…
So bad, even the man at Hertz will wince apologetically as he hands you the keys. This car has no reason – no right – to exist.
It’s ugly, drives like a boat and feels flimsier than a Poundstretcher bog roll holder. According to the Sebring website, ‘the soft top retracts and folds and the boot opens and closes with nothing more than a finger’s command’.
We can think of a fingered command for it, but it ain’t polite. It’s crass, unrefined and noisy too – a fact not helped by the generally accepted wisdom that Chrysler will be history before the year’s out. At least it’ll take the Sebring down with it.
Agree with this? Wade in below. We’ll add up the total number of comments on each of the WTF Car? Award posts to work out the overall winner, so type carefully. “
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:30 pm
http://foreman.blogs.topgear.com/2009/01/23/wtf-car-awards-chrysler-sebring/
look at the 90 responses to the above.. enjoy.
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:44 pm
When did they last sell Sebring in the UK? It is not shown on the Chrysler UK web site now, but apparently they sold the car there for a while. I can’t imagine why.
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Nick,
I don’t have time to read 90 responses, but post #67 is referring to the Sebring convertible … a far different car from the Avenger 4-door sedan.
February 2nd, 2010 at 2:53 pm
I owned a 1993 Dodge Spirit. From new till trade in at 196K, that vehicle had no rattles, leaks, squeaks, or anything; it just flat ran like a Maytag and was as solid as a rock. I rode in a new Avenger. Anyone that needs to know what the result of Daimler and, later on, Cerebus only need to drive one of these. I discovered that the beancounters took so much out of the car, this is the result. The pan over the bottom of the radiator, under hood noise deadening as well as gaskets, trim under hood and trunk are all obvious. I’d hate to think what the beancounters found that ISN’T seen.
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Come on John, is that all you got about the MKS? Give us a real problem, like a sticking throttle. Good grief, one has to do some work when driving these new vehicles. So, you got to look for a button, get a life. Ford deserves some bandwaggoning. It took enough bashing in the 70s/80/s/90s.
February 2nd, 2010 at 8:59 pm
Max, why are Mopar guys stwiching to Hyundai evryday, if we were so POS? Im one of them. The fit visually appears to have more space becuase it has 5 doors,etc… but the EPA measured the Accent to have 2 more feet of cubic passenger space then Fit. The Fit i will admit is an ergonomic masterpiece. This is the “new” fit, the last gen 07 model had even less interior space than the current one
Nick this must not be a good month for car sales, as the Soul has been selling twice as much for mosr of the year. Usually around 4500-5300 a month or more. Rio is a 3500-4500 a month car normally. It still doesnt matter as KIA is up over the year.
Nick, Next gen Civic looks ghastly, and once you see it even you will jump ship from Honda, trust me. I expect the same non-Honda Excellence as the CR-Z and Insight, Next gen Civic into the Accord as well. This is only the beginning with these recals and you know it. More and more of these recalls will deter people out of these cars as well.
From what Ive seen Nissan/Infiniti has the best looking next gen products by far coming out of Japan. Probably the only drivable vehicles coming out of Japan for the next 3-5 years from a design standpont. There’s going to be more typical boring vanila Baby Boomer crap for Toyota as well. Yaris=they blatantly copied the Fit, and Yarised it a little bit.
Honda is going to have to do some personnel change3s in design before the 2016 MY.
Next Gen Versa hatch is going to be a looker (it makes the Fit look silly and Juvenile), but as I have explaned about Versa’s build quality, people might get deterred as the Versas bad reputation grows. The sedan is another Japanese hum drum exercise, but an improvement over the current Versa sedan.
Nissan/Infiniti might be a thorn on our sides, but only if they can up those reliability stats. They are a middle of the pack company.